Composite squares to the nodes (Composite "Skipped Steps")

[pufferfishy]

I've always wondered at the difference between a planet conjunct the NN/SN and one that squares the two. In a natal chart and synastry, it is somewhat easier to understand - because there's a definite interplay of energies. Push/pull/expand/restrict, etc.
The nodal aspects in a composite chart, however, leave much to be desired. There isn't that much information out there (that I know of). We can *deduce* what they mean, sure. But I'd love to hear your takes on the planets square composite nodes.

Sasstrology says "Any composite planet squaring the nodes points to the reappearance of past life obstacles."

Here's their explanation of Mars square the nodes.

I've NO idea what any of these aspects could mean. But here's a stab at interpretation to get the ball rolling.

Sun square the nodes: Who you are as a couple interfering with who you're "supposed" to be, at least in a past life.
Moon square the nodes:
Mercury square the nodes: Umm. A cold war tore you apart? Learn to establish a rapport with each other?
Venus square the nodes: Doh.
Mars square the nodes: ...what it says in the article.
Jupiter square the nodes: Errrrrrr.
Saturn square the nodes: You weren't allowed to be together because societal obligations/restrictions made it impossible. Couldn't set up a family (or give structure  to your relationship in some way).
Uranus square the nodes: Ummm.......
Neptune square the nodes: You're here in this life to learn forgiveness & compassion through each other. One or both partners being vindictive and/or un-accepting may have broken you up in a past life.
Pluto square the nodes: The Bonnie & Clyde aspect?

[sven555]

pufferfishy

Uranus maybe meant: the generational difference, wrong era to have the relationship as it is ahead of it's time, stop/start, hot/cold.
Jupiter maybe meant: differences in philosophy, too extravagant, too reckless, maybe even a lack of conviction because things were too easy.
Venus maybe meant: differences in taste, out of sync with each other, too loving or not loving enough.
Moon maybe meant: emotional differences, bad memories.

[StarVega]

pufferfishy

You are the pufferfishiest of all <3

"Saturn square the nodes: You weren't allowed to be together because societal obligations/restrictions made it impossible. Couldn't set up a family (or give structure to your relationship in some way)."

I have this with many people born in the year or two after me, though it depends on what orbs you like. Leo Saturn square Scorpio NN.

I have it with my best friend, less than 2° orb. I have it with other friends and exes. 

I don't live near most of them and no, we're not really integrated into each other's lives, we either live too far apart, or come from different worlds.

[lucina]

I see squares to the Nodes a tad different. They are right in the middle between past (SN) and future (NN); to even get to the NN and develop whatever conjuncts the NN, we first need to address the planets that are squaring the nodes. I think of them as the "way" or "the "portal" to the future and the NN. 

They tend to be very emphasized, either by complete ignorance or by overplaying them, sometimes both at different times. 


Saturn squaring the nodal axis might indicate an absolute need to find a workable structure for the relationship, some sort of agreement that both people hold to. If that is not happening, there probably will be no way for a relationship to blossom. First the legal things (or circumstantial issues) have to be sorted. If it is worked on constructively, these relationships might take off wonderfully, though it depends what is conjunct the NN possibly. If it is Uranus, it might be that two people just build a structure to discover that really they are meant to liberate each other and go beyond that structure again. But to go beyond anything you have to first have it.  

The problem with the square is that while these issues have to be worked on, integrated, once that is done they need to be expressed in a flowing way and be open for evolvement, trouble happens if two people get stuck at that point

[lucina]

StarVega

looks like a very profound nodal experience, as pretty much everything is focusing on the nodal axis. It`s not just Mars-Saturn as a skipped step (which in itself does sound quite challenging to me, though no challenge is unsurmountable, but maybe you both were too young when you met), but it is the whole T-square-formation which includes Sun, Venus, Uranus, Jupiter and Mars-Saturn.

There of course was love and attraction with that deep Venus on the NN, but I also notice that the midpoint of Sun/Uranus, as the bookends of that stellium is falling right in between that Venus-NN, so I guess liberation was supposed to be a big theme in your relationship. almost like you were asked both to be completely devoted to your relationship but at the same time rather unconventional and giving each other a lot of space, being a very unusual pairing. With Jupiter on the SN, there was of course a very benevolent factor coming from some past experiences (depending if you believe in past lives), possibly coming from a mentor or sibling-like relationship and evolving into that electric intense love-connection, that was striving to find both security and deep experiences, that probably were not able to be lived on a day-to-day-level; with the ruler of the SN right on the NN, there was clear destiny at play, you were meant to meet again to especially work with the Venus-energy as a duo. At least that is what Jeffrey Greene said in his book on evolutionary astrology (btw he was doing a lot of work on the nodal axis, so maybe have a look at his work?), that having the ruler of the SN conjunct the NN is one of the clear signs that people meet "again". (there are some others, too of course).

In your case that Venus was having a square to Mars-Saturn, actually being square the midpoint pretty closely, which in itself is not an easy aspect. plus of course both mars and Saturn were being skipped steps, push-and-pull, again and again. you would have needed to find ways to apply the passion and energy constructively, maybe team up for a shared project, to make that work I think.

And Venus has no real mitigating aspects, except that square there is just the shaky quinkunx to Moon.

Of course there is an opposition to Jupiter along the nodal axis and wide conjunctions to Sun and Uranus, making for that very electric fascinating magnetism, And Venus - NN was on the Neptune/Pluto-midpoint, the "supernatural-midpoint".

It is a very intense Venus, but because of all the electric aspects and the challenging mars-Saturn-square, I would have loved to see a sextile or trine of anything in that chart; producing sparks or chemistry was not the problem, but channeling those in harmonious ways probably was.


On the other hand even a dreadful looking nodal alignment in the composite can work out.
For example my parents have a Mars-Saturn-conjunction on the SN in composite and the SN is exactly square Chiron in 5th house (Amor - Eros is on the NN).

Curiously when they got married there was another very challenging Transit happening as Tr Venus was conjunct Tr Chiron and both were opposing Tr Uranus. The intriguing thing was that this transiting T-square connected to their chart, but with more or less harmonious aspects, like Tr Venus was trine composite Chiron on 23 Sag, Tr Uranus was sextile composite Chiron, Tr Mars (which widely squared the Tr Venus-Chiron and Tr Uranus) trined their composite NN.


Not sure if or what that meant for them, however fact is they have an exact square of 5th house Chiron to their nodal axis in composite.

In a way it is interesting that my brother was born with the Down syndrome, and in this way exemplifies the maverick, the one who is certainly "different", and also carrying an "uncurable wound", if "wound" is defined as anything that is different than the norm. In the very least he would need extra care for life, so it`s not like my parents could look forward to all their children leaving the house eventually and them being able to return to just couple-hood. (well turns out noone ever really leaves far from the family. lol we are more a tribe than a family in modern understanding).


Also my parents took in my aunt as sort of foster child when I was a few months old, because my grandfather couldn´t supervise her as she needed (he had to work shifts and my grandmother had died when my aunt was just 2 years old), so she practically is my sister. lol
Apart from that my parents also always did and still look after my uncle, who, while not being diagnosed in any way, is not quite capable of organizing his life without help (especially in financial and practical terms).

And also for two times they were taking in another boy with Down syndrome as sort of foster child, but only for a few weeks, because the child`s grandmother had to undergo treatment in the hospital (the child`s mother was out of the picture, as she was a hardly recovering drug addict and not able to provide care for anyone).

Plus my mom cofounded a non profit organization for mentally handicapped people and my Dad became part of another of these organizations, and is pretty much one of the decisive factors there even today.


I wonder if that was the 5th house Chiron or how they chose to express it. Their Mars-Saturn comes from a DW conjunction in synastry, where it is relatively unafflicted though. One of the conjunctions is trine my Dad`s Venus-Jupiter-conjunction even, synastrically. I suppose that helped.


BTW speaking of their marriage transit, there was an exact conjunction of Tr Juno and Tr Ceres, exactly falling onto their composite Jupiter (all on 9 degree Pisces, where my natal Ceres is located) and stimulating their Grand trine in composite of Jupiter on 9 Pisces, Uranus on 7 Cancer and Juno on 8 Scorpio. So that was the nice bit. lol



Anyway for the transits you went through, seriously Tr Uranus opposing Saturn alone would sound rather challenging, but this must have been a highly crazy making aspect, on its own to Mars-Saturn, but Mars-saturn also being involved in that T-square. not sure what saintly people would have managed to keep their cool with that!

[StarVega]

edit

[lucina]

I am glad my interpretation resonated, though I would have wished for a better ending.

As for the Chiron-Saturn-square, well, first of all I would take it with a pinch of salt anyway, but honestly speaking the magi do not use composite and the square of saturn to Chiron here would be out of their orb (it is 5 degrees)

As for the indulgence you mentioned with H - it made me think of the Taurus-Jupiter on the SN - that can be very indulgent I think.


BTW this is our composite here, I know it looks chaotic, but interestingly enough all the relevant bits tied to the nodal axis (Mars, Pluto, Moon, Venus, whereas Venus and Mars are ruling the axis anyway) are making aspects to everything else in the composite, too. lol

[StarVega]

12H Moon-Venus in Cap, square Libra NN-Mars-Pluto....*long sigh*

It's funny that they say the 12H is a house of imprisonment, when it simultaneously offers the ability to dissolve and move through walls. But are you two stuck in that Neptune zone, unable to Mars-Pluto? (Yes I'm using that as a verb. )

So what can you accomplish with 12H Cap Venus-moon? Serious feelings....high standards...it's funny that you often meet in a setting where the business (Cap) is making a beautiful (Venus) display of feeling (moon).

If you make the most of this, do you arrive at the Mars-Pluto?

But isn't that an extra challenge, to manifest a 12H/Neptune/Pisces planet that squares the axis? There's no form to it. How can it be a skipped step when it's just a cloud that you can't step on?

Thanks for the info about Magi, and yes....Jupiter-SN in Taurus made us indulgent, especially as it's more or less conjunct his moon. 

[lucina]

Ahhh the 12th house - house of the rising sun. Maybe the most intriguing houses of all, I could write novels about it but not sure I would really express its meaning properly. I will write some bits on it later though. just not now.

BTW curiously to my surprise Moon in 12th house in a composite is the one placement I have found most often. Well I ahve not really reserached it, I just noticed at some point after looking at composites of people who are close to me or even celebrities, that this 12th house Moon seemed to show up very regularly and I was surprised. I have read the ghost stories about 12th house as well (and like most ghost stories they are just a twisted version of the truth at least I think so.)

Well I saw the 12th house Moon in both celebrity composites of JOhn Lennon and Yoko ONo; well they had Sun, Moon, Mercury and NN in the 12th house in composite, the dispositor of these energies were Jupiter on the DESC (for Sun and NN) and Saturn in 3rd (for the Moon-Mercury-conjunction)

Paul Mc Cartney and his first wife had Moon in 12th house as well, just in Libra and Venus was in 10th house.



But actually I first noticed it in these real life couples, and all of them have been pretty committed, lasting for a long time until now.

my best friend and her husband: Moon in Pisces in 12th house, with Neptune in 8th house, and actually squaring that Moon

my parents: Moon in Cancer in 12th house, widely conjunct Uranus in 11th house with 7 degree orb, and Uranus ruling their composite DESC

my brother and his wife: no Moon in 12th house, but Sun, Mercury, Venus conjunct in 12th house in Pisces, with Neptune on 00 Capricorn in 9th house but conjunct MC

It is so funny how most of the dispositors are in some way landing in an angular house. the 7th and 10th. I guess that is where the 12th house energy can pour out into.

But cannot be such a bad place after all, the 12th composite house, these are 3 of the healthiest most loving and constructive relationships I´ve come to see around me (and neither of these relationships is prone to gloss over anything, well my best friend sometimes has the inclination, but before things can go really awry they usually address whatever needs to be addressed, and my parents and my brother and his wife are very honest and straightforward with each other).

BTW my best friend and me also have a 12th house composite Moon, so it is workable for friendships too. (my Moon is conjunct her hubbie`s Moon by 2 degrees so basically we share the same Moon-Neptune-aspect of course)


12th house planets however can be seen a bit like a skipped step themselves, for reasons that have to do with the nature of the 12th house.

It is unlikely however that in our case this is formless, not in Capricorn. I think that it is the signbackground anyway that gives something form, not the house. the house represents the area where something manifests, but not how.

[StarVega]

Sept 30, 2017 16:28:02 GMT lucina said:

 the house represents the area where something manifests, but not how.

I loved all of that. And this ^ is really a prize....

I'm STILL stumped on sign v. house questions!

So a 12H composite moon manifests.......in church?  

It resonates in areas that are about the greater meaning of life?

I'm glad you consider the SIGNS in composite; it drives me batty that some astrologers don't.

[lucina]

"I'm STILL stumped on sign v. house questions!"
Yes, me, too. I know some astrologers use it interchangeably, I once did, too.
And there ARE certain similiarities, common ground etc, but I just feel that there is also a distinction.
For example, with my stellium in 1st house using the astrological alphabet (house = sign = planet), I would be considered acting and being like an Aries. Despite my Draco planets in Aries I don´t really feel like I am your typical Aries-character though.
But of course there are some shared manifestations. It`s tricky.





"So a 12H composite moon manifests.......in church? "
lol that is one of the possible manifestations, yes.

BTW I don`t consider Neptune or Pisces or 12th house as formless, if we treat them for a moment as equivalents. The thing is Neptune in particular can take on ANY form, which is what makes people getting confused.


As for the 12th house it is so intriguing, we call it the "hidden house", yet that is not completely true. It is after all the house where the light of the sun is born and the first ray of sunlight appear. The real dark house btw is the 4th house, completely withdrawn from the light, deep under the surface.

the 12th house however, it is a bit strange, and has many possible manifestations.

For example, yes it tends to be a blind spot for ourselves, a planet hidden from our own acknowledgement, but not so from our evnironment. Usually people outside can see these planets operating in our psyche clearly, yet if we are not very conscious about what is going on within us, we might flat out deny this to be the case. At the same time however this very planetary agree is a ressort of energy, that is where we draw strength and power from, usually almost subconsciously, when we are getting depleted.

Maybe that is the reason for two other manifestations

a) it is the house of fame, curiously.
Much more than the 10th house interestingly. Not publicity, but fame status. (of course not every actor has a full 12th house, but given its reputation, astonishingly many public figures, representing some Zeitgeist, have it).

It has something to do with the strange simultaneious presence of both, privacy and collective presence.
Like one can hide in public. lol

Thing is often 12th house planets can become the carrier of some collective archetype, representing something of the collective psyche, or the collective tends to see that. (Pluto sometimes can act like that as well, especially in contact with personal planets). Composite 12th house can sometimes become an example of some archetype (reminds me of John Lennon and Yoko ONo actually. lol)

But of course usually we are just normal people, and no celebrities who become "idols" (in the very pure sense of the word; emanating an image that people choose to see; the 12th house has also been called the house of your personal God/ deity)


And another thing about it is that it was associated with conception or at least the prenatal phase, and in that way might also point towards karmic and past life stuff, hence the skippe step similiarity.


b) the other manifestation, that the ancient expressed as the house of monastery, hospital, jail etc. , well the principle behind it is that it is a house of privacy and solitude (though not loneliness). It is where we withdraw to upload our battery, to gain strength for facing the world.
People with a 12th house need time alone, to well as Terk in a musical described it "meditate to become one with their instincts" lol (pretty sure that was a subtle reference to something different )


Oh and the ancients (and Vedics still do) consider it the "house of bed pleasures". lol
Well usually, if we are not John and Yoko, we are in our bed alone (or in case of the composite, just two people) and leave the outer world, out of it.

But really I think that is the basis of the 12th house, the area where we withdraw into our privacy and centre ourselves again and reenergize to then face the worldly areas again.

The downfall of this house really is a certain self-oblivion, that it takes time to acknowledge the content of the 12th house. It`s like we are drawing strength from something we are not aware of, even though others may see it clearly.

I mean honestly, I was shocked when people told me they could clearly see my Mars in 12th operating. I was not even aware of it! But when they elaborated I could see it, all the moments it showed its face clearly (no matter if it was a fit of rage as a 4 year old or so, because I could not read and could not understand everything my mom did or if it was me, being a shy kid really, suddenly get up before class and holding a spontaneous speech to make them donate all our earned money for an organization supporting children who had cancer). Nothing of that was done from a deliberate perspective. I had not thought about it. I had not even been aware of it, or how unusual it was. I did it by instinct, almost like some part of the subconsciousness took over and steered me towards this.

But point is, that is so much Mars in Sagittarius acting - putting energy into some mission. I mean it is the crusader mars after all. LOL



That in a nutshell is the 12th house for me.




"
I'm glad you consider the SIGNS in composite; it drives me batty that some astrologers don't."
It is debateable of course. Just like HOUSES are. in its nature the composite is simply an aspects chart, AND because it is derived of midpoints, actually we are dealing with an axis. So in fact our Moon-Venus is not in Capricorn, but on the Capricorn-Cancer-axis. And the 12th house, is really the 12th-6th house axis (one inhabiting the near midpoint, one the far).

I do tend to rely on the near midpoints though, especially in our case as the planets are so close to each other anyway. It would be probably different, if two people had opposing Suns, then it can get pretty arbitrary if we say the Sun is in Pisces or Virgo for example.

the signplacements always resonate with both, but for now I just think the near midpoint might be the more defining one. But I can be wrong about that of course.

[pufferfishy]

Thanks so much, lucina for your input! I'd love to hear what you think of the other squares too.

StarVega , I too thought you guys were simply too young when you met. <3

P.S. lucina, I agree with all that you said about the 12th house. It really does tap into the collective psyche and can be a personal "blind spot" of sorts.

[lucina]

I don`t really think though we can make general statements, every square to the nodal axis has to be treated in reference to the a) the composite and b) both natal charts.

Also check where the dispositor is going to, that is where the energy might manifest most clearly.

[StarVega]

Thank you, lucina! So many great facts in there, it's like you water our brain cells every day.

My sun in mutual reception with 12H Saturn.

Ha, sometimes I do feel Saturnless, which is to say, it's hard to concentrate, nail myself down, nail thoughts down (Saturn opposing Mercury). So when it all comes back to me, after its vacation time away, I am just delighted. But maybe to other people, my Saturn was probably evident all along.

"People with a 12th house need time alone, to well as Terk in a musical described it "meditate to become one with their instincts""

I can totally see that......

I wonder if dawn is the best time to tap into 12H energy? I know the Bible makes a big deal about the "first fruits of the morning," and in Ayurveda, people are advised to rise before the sun, as the energy sinks again after that, creating sleepiness. Hmm, that's probably off topic, but I am a little surprised that the 3rd house technically is happening in the middle of the night when people aren't talking...and so on.

[sven555]

StarVega, lucina, pufferfishy

We can make a new topic about the focus of energy during the day; because that is a interesting topic.

Btw, lucina, my Sun sits right next to your IC (by 3 degrees); I wonder how that is playing out!

StarVega, do you think Saturn ever allows you to go on vacation?