Declinations and longitudinal equivalents conversion (LE)

[lucina]

I know this is probably somewhat of an advanced subject, or actually it might be a very ancient concept.  

I was coming across my book of the astrologer Charles Jayne again, and he stated the importance of the declinations for a complete astrological analysis. In fact he only considered following aspects as "angular aspects":

° conjunction
° opposition
° square
° parallel
° contraparallel
° antiscia/ contrascia

but often referring to the longitudinal equivalent charts of the declinations


I remembered that I had been reading about this before, actually by several authors. One article came to mind by Bette Denlinger

www.angelfire.com/pa/ASTRALWELCOME/synastry.html


And just now by an author, I actually value very highly, this article

www.astrologer.com/aanet/pub/journal/declination-for-beginners.htm


I know that Kannon from LL also pays a lot of attention to declinations, which to me makes sense, if we think of the spatial reality of earth, and the sky above our heads, the longitudes are just ONE set of coordinates, but to locate a point or object, we really do need two. 


I just found by coincidence that my planetdance software has the option to show the longitudinal equivalents of a chart. 
www.jcremers.com/


the software is for free, but I think StarVega had problems downloading it, right?
For me it was problemfree. 

So StarVega, if you are interested I can at least do it for the data you give me, and give you the longitudinal equivalents of the data you want. 

I just had a look at my own, and honestly, been completely blown away. 

Funny thing is when I was starting with astrology I was so disappointed I was not having any personal planet in Pisces, not because I thought Pisces was great, but when I ahd read about the characteristics of the signs, it was the Pisces-section that was just "me".

Of course by now I know I have Neptune on my ASC plus the dispositor of my Sag-planets is in Pisces, with Jupiter-Neptune-square and in mutual reception. So it definitely makes sense. 

However, the intensity of my emotions seemed to not be corborated by my Aqua Moon, and I mean emotions, not necessarily romantic expression (like Venus would be about). 

But an Aqua Moon quinkunx Saturn? Hmm....

Of course I also realized that using new rulership my Aqua Moon  is disposited by Uranus in Scorpio on 11th house cusp, or using traditional rulership, by Saturn in Cancer in 8th house. 

Of course that is already a new hypothesis (Dispositorship should be checked for a complete picture of a planet - personally I believe it to be true, but it is a working hypothesis of course).


Anyway I absolutely WAS blown away, when I realized that this occurs in my longitudinal equivalent chart


Moon 1 Pisces
opposite
Pluto 29 Leo
square
Neptune 1 Sag


making for a midpoint picture of Neptune = Moon/Pluto

And boy does THAT make sense!

NEPTUNE TO MIDPOINT MOON/PLUTO

The supernatural is added to the emotional life; the feeling of fate;

psychometric gifts. Sentimentality, depression, lack of will-power.



Of course this has to be added or merged with the normal longitudinal coordinate and picture of the Moon. 
But Moon in Pisces? Yes, absolutely. 


I do think however that the LE - longitudinal equivalent- MUST NEVER be compared to the normal longitudes. These are two different sets of coordinates really!



As for synastry, I did have a cursory glance at my parents charts


My Dad has an exact Sun-Mercury-conjunction in his le-chart with Jupiter nearby, which describes his intellectual capacities very well, even better than the longitudinal chart, and his compulsion to solve puzzles or riddles. lol

My Mom has a near to exact Moon-Saturn-conjunction in her le chart, and that makes a lot of sense as well, in the longitudes it is too far to be considered a conjunction, over 10 degrees, but if anyone exhibits Moon-Saturn-characteristics it is my Mom.


Synastrically I noticed

° his Sun-Mercury square her Sun and trine her Moon-Saturn (he`s the only one who can really tear her from her depressed moods by making her laugh because he is saying something completely bizarre and out of place)

° his Moon-Black Moon opposes her Sun (like in the longitudes) and trines her Mars

° his Venus exactly trines her Sun

° his Mars conjuncts her Moon-Saturn exactly and opposes her Jupiter exact (they have 3 kids after all, I don´t think I have to elaborate on that  )

° his Saturn conjuncts her Mars 

° his Pluto squares her Moon-Saturn: not sure I really ever saw that in action

° his Node square her Uranus


Anyway of course it could be argued that maybe only conjunctions and oppositions should be taken into account as these DIRECTLY correlate with the parallels (conjunction) and contraparallels (opposition). 

I keep that in mind but risk a glance at other aspects as well, especially squares and possibly trines, just because I like those. lol

But yes I`d say the important angular aspects here are:

his Mars conjuncts her Moon-Saturn (this is partly a repeated aspect, as his Mars conjuncts her Saturn anyway, but in the declinations her Moon gets pulled in, and it just makes sense)
his Mars opposite her Jupiter
his Moon-BML opposite her Sun and his Saturn conjunct her Mars (but this is a repeated aspect)

[lucina]

One thing, maybe not even the signs of the le charts should be considered as it is just a projection of the declinations into the longitudinal language we are familiar with?
In this case the Moon in Pisces is obsolete, however it still leaves me with the Moon-Pluto-aspects (they are contraparallel of course; in fact my Moon is also parallel Uranus, I wonder where that has gone to in the conversion. lol)

Ah yes, Uranus on 29 Libra on the antiscion of 1 Pisces.
the conversion table only gives ONE possible degree, but in fact I believe there are two and they are always on the antiscion of each other. We can grasp them all together, if we do not only consider conjunction and opposition but also the antiscia/ contrascia degrees, - this way we have a good overview over all the parallel/ contraparallel aspects.


Question is of course why would we go the extra mile and do this conversion, if we can simply check the parallels/ contraparallels?


I see 2 reasons for this:

1. out of bounds planets
these would be included in the conversion table as well - as proposed by KT Boehrer

www.astrologysoftware.com/community/getarticle.asp?ID=34


www.astrologyweekly.com/declination/


2) orbs
unlike in longitudes the planets to not move regularly in the declinations:
In the end-regions (towards 23 degrees S or N) they are much slower than closer to the equator (00 degrees), that means that if we use a fixed 1 degree orb, this can span many months if a planet is near the solstices, but just days if it is in lower regions.

By making a longitudinal equivalent, we pay consideration to that fact, and can see this difference.


For example

a)
my Saturn: 21°57 N
P`s Venus 22°40 S

This would be contraparallel by 0°47, so well within 1 degree orb.

in the conversion this becomes

my Saturn 20°02 Cancer
his Venus 14°25 Capricorn

for an orb of 5°37, so a VERY wide opposition/contraparallel really



on the other hand we find

my Moon 11°05 S
his Mars 9°57 N

for a contraparallel of 1°08, which is slightly out of orb for the 1 degree orb that most astrologers like, and certainly looking like a wider aspect than the one above (Saturn-Venus, right?)


in the conversion however

my Moon 1°04 Pisces
his Mars 4°16 Virgo

for an opposition of 3°12


this example, I think demonstrates clearly the sliding scale of orbs in the declinations.

So we either allow a reduced orb at the higher regions and an expanded one nearer to the equator, or we have a quick glance at the conversion table - which I prefer out of laziness and comfort cause I have a good grasp of how orbs and aspects work as projected on the longitudes, but not so much when it comes to the declinations, at least not yet.

Anyway so an under 1 degree orb in the high regions equal almost 6 degrees orb in a longitudinal sense (which is what we are familiar with, our zodiac)

whereas an over 1 degreee orb in a bit lower regions equals just 3 degrees orb, which is absolutely "in orb" imo

[StarVega]

Thank you lucina, be back later to study this.

[StarVega]

Hi there lucina,

I can't sleep...it's the middle of the night here.

Thanks for the lesson and articles. I've read some and skimmed over others. And I really enjoyed looking at your examples, both in your chart and your parents' l.e. synastry. You do seem Pisces moonish, except you're a bit too practical and focused to convince me. Plus you aren't quite sappy enough, but that could be the traditional dispositor of Saturn in Cancer, as you said.

Thanks also for offering to obtain some l.e. info for me, I hate to ask but may get so curious I can't resist. We'll see.

For now, one thing I'm stuck on...and maybe this is a dumb question, already answered in your articles:

How is it even possible to standardize these longitudinal equivalents? Is it just based on an ideal pattern?

For instance, my moon is at 0°31' S yet the l.e. for that is 28 Pisces, according to the calculator on the page you linked (thank you).

I think it may have something to do with my latitude? L.e.'s are based on the declinations at the equator?

---

On another note:

Peluches at LL had asked how draconic declinations are calculated, and I remember wondering back then if every declination had longitudinal equivalents, but in practice, they didn't match up: the same zodiac degree is represented with different declinations, from year to year.

However maybe system this solves that problem, if it works both ways, so that not only does each declination have l.e.'s, but vice versa, each zodiac degree is associated with a standard declination.

That is just a guess and I may not be phrasing it clearly.

[lucina]

Hi StarVega


"Thanks also for offering to obtain some l.e. info for me, I hate to ask but may get so curious I can't resist. We'll see.
"
Just ask and give me the data. 




"How is it even possible to standardize these longitudinal equivalents? Is it just based on an ideal pattern?



For instance, my moon is at 0°31' S yet the l.e. for that is 28 Pisces, according to the calculator on the page you linked (thank you).
"


It is connected to the Sun, which is of course defining the ecliptic. 
Every zodiacal degree the Sun is on corresponds with a declination. Actually there are two degrees that correspond to the same declination, which are always on each other`s antiscion. 

Here is a helpful table

www.bonniehill.net/pages.aux/astrology/decl.long.html

For example my Moon is at 11 degrees of Southern declination. If the Sun was at that point in the declinations, the Sun would be at 01 Pisces or alternatively 29 Libra at the same time in the zodiac. 

That relationship between Sun`s declination and zodiacal degree is fixed; because it is the Sun´s course that is really creating the ecliptic that we measure everything else against. 

For the conversion of the other planets we use that equation that I just explained for the Sun. it is always related to the Sun`s course because this is the ecliptic. 



As for the Draconic chart, I think we need to keep in mind that this a purely symbolic chart, created by substracting the zodiacal length of the North Node from any planet in zodiac. 

I suppose we would need to do the same for the declinations. 
Substracting the declination of the NN from the other planet`s declinations. 
And if we have done that, we can look up which would be the longitudinal equivalent. 


Also one thing to keep in mind is that while there is a certain declination correlating to each degree of the Sun`s way, this is NOT true for other planets. I mean I can have Moon at 11 degrees South as in my case, which would usually correlate with 1 Pisces, if the Moon was the Sun - - - but as you know in my chart my Moon is at 17 Aquarius, not 1 pisces. That is because the planets are not REALLY bound to the ecliptic exactly, which is the reason they can go out of bounds, which means they can get higher or lower than the ecliptic/Sun`s course. 

[StarVega]

Thanks for explaining, lucina!

That makes it clearer.

I have more work to do with this idea.

Hope you know I was complimenting you when I said you don't seem like a Pisces Moon. Sometimes I feel really ineffectual because I get so bogged down in emotion.

Anyway, this chart is so handy. The idea itself appeals to me, 'seems to put things in order the way they should be. But my moon's l.e. is 1 Aries/28 or 29 Virgo....not sure what to make of that.

Though I love the spring equinox and have Klotho-Vesta there; my wedding anniversary is around 0 Aries. 

[lucina]

StarVega

Wedding anniversary on the awakening of spring sounds awesome. 

I would want mine to be on 1st may. As if I ever got married! lol


And yes I understood you meant it as a compliment that I am not the typical Pisces Moon though yu are not that bad. Pisces Mooner I mean, but of course there are some other influences in my chart as well. 

each declination correlates with two zodiacal degrees, which are on each others antiscion. 
I am also not sure if we can really consider the sign background or if this chart is only equipped to weigh the orbs in the declinations. Don`t know yet. 

[lucina]

I found this quote here

"Generally, each declination has two possible longitude equivalents, and in the standard method, the one used is that which falls into the same zodiacal quadrant as the original longitude of the point. The alternative longitude equivalent point is always the antiscia point (i.e. reflection in the 00Cn00/00Cp00 axis) of the standard one.

A special provision applies if a point’s declination is out-of-bounds (i.e. beyond the maximum declination of the ecliptic, which is about 23 degrees and 26 minutes). In such cases, the declination is first adjusted by “mirroring” it about the maximum point. This is effected by subtracting the excess declination from its maximum value. For example, a point at 25N00 has an excess of 1°34’, so its adjusted declination is 23N26 - 1°34’, which equals 21N52.

S"


longitude equivalent


Now, I must be honest here and admit, that this does not sit right with me. I understand that this is the only possibility to project the out of bound planets onto the ecliptic and into some zodiacal positions. HOwever, they ARE NOT on the ecliptic, and there is a reason those planets are oob. And a declination of 25°N00 is not the same as 21N52. 
It doesn`t make much sense to me, though it is easy or comfortable to work with. 


I guess while I do think this dimension, the declinations, is important and should be maybe considered more, it should be treated as its own dimension. those are not longitudes. So I guess what I am saying is that we should treat them as what they are, declinations and not try to press them into some sort of longitudinal scenario, which can only be very symbolic anyway.



But anyway I am still very interested into looking into this dimension, especially since it is NEEDED for an eclipse to take place, as an example. 

"Eclipses are somewhat rare occurrences simply due to the large number of factors that have to be just right in order for them to take place. While the astrological meaning of Eclipses is not the focus of this article, you can gain insight by remembering the additional factors beyond the normal New and Full Moon that go into their manifestation. In addition to the normal New or Full Moon, you also have…"




it occurring conjunct (or, at least, close to) a Node

a close conjunction in Declination (a Parallel aspect)."

Eclipses


In fact ONLY if two planets are conjunct AND parallel, they would "look" conjunct, or being merged into one (as we define a conjunction) if you look up into the sky. If they are conjunct in longitude, but not parallel, they would appear as one being a bit below the other, so still rather nearby of course. It still a conjunction. 


As for parallels/ contraparallels, these occur in my own natal chart:


Sun parallel Venus 0°42

Moon parallel Uranus 0°22
Moon contraprallel Pluto 0°35
Uranus contraparallel Pluto 0°13

Mercury parallel Venus 0°32

Mars contraparallel SAturn 0°43
Mars parallel Neptune 0°47
Mars parallel NN 0°45
Mars parallel ASC 0°16
Saturn parallel SN 0°02 
Saturn parallel DESC 0°27
Neptune parallel ASC 1°03
NN parallel ASC 0°29


asteroids

Chiron contraparallel Jupiter 0°05
Pallas parallel MC 0°23
Vesta parallel Sun 0°43
Vesta contraparallel SAturn 0°38
Vesta parallel NN 0°36
Vesta parallel ASC 1°05
Juno parallel Moon 0°43
Juno parallel Uranus 1°05
(Juno contraprallel Pluto 1°18)



Of these:

Mars is conjunct AND parallel Neptune
Mars is conjunct and parallel NN
Mars is conjunct and parallel ASC
Neptune is conjunct and parallel NN
NN is conjunct and parallel ASC


Well, the nodal axis and the angles are not physical objects, but calculated points, that leaves us with Mars and Neptune; what it means is that if someone had looked up (or actually to the East, as these were rising) when I was being born, they would have seen Mars and Neptune actually merged into one spot, an unit.
A true conjunction so to speak. 


P has such a true conjunction as well, for him it is Mars conjunct and parallel Jupiter (though the parallel is a bit wide with 1°12 however being at lower declination, still in orb, equaling a longitudinal conjunction of 3 degrees).


StarVega

you have a true conjunction between Venus and Neptune though it is possible the orb is a tad wide, as the parallel exceeds 1° considerably (1°26) (if we convert it into longitudes this would be like a 7 degrees conjunction of Venus and NEptune, so I think it is valid, albeit a tad wide). 


You do have in any case a true opposition as your Moon is opposite and contraparallel Juno, and the orbs are fairly small. (I do not view contraparallels like longitudinal oppositions though, or let`s say I view them more as a mellowed down version of opposition and more complementing and reflecting than downright being simply oppositional forces). 

[StarVega]

Hi lucina ,

Thanks....I find that very interesting. Your true conjunction and P's matching one....

As your Mars is in Sag, conjunct Neptune, and his Mars is conjunct Jupiter, ruler of Sag (and Pisces, old school).

So there is a similarity and extra brightness, like a doubling of the brightness, would you say? That's how it would appear in the sky, after all...possibly.

My Venus-Neptune has me perplexed lately; thanks for mentioning it. I watched a Jewel Mayberry video on the natal aspect the other day, and she says we are difficult people to be in a relationship with, because we are always searching for a higher ideal.

I think she is talking about those of us who aren't with an ideal mate; when we do find that person, we can sound excessive. People have definitely mocked me for my overblown romantic nature before. 

But Neptune is the higher octave of Venus....put those together and what should happen? Something positive, perhaps? Not ALL negative, as I read.....not just smoke and mirrors. 

Well Leonard Cohen had Venus conjunct Neptune, so did Jeff Buckley, and "Hallelujah" is a good trademark song for it, I guess.

I like that it's "cold and broken" because that means it's real and substantial...only tangible things can break. 

My Saturn is contraparallel Neptune; maybe that's why I don't like being painted as a simpleton in love, even if I have been exactly that.....it's not the only thing I was capable of....or the most important part of my story. 

It's late and I'm babbling and editing and babbling more....

I should just hibernate with this Merc Rx grand crossing my fixed t-square.  

[sven555]

Apr 14, 2017 4:07:04 GMT StarVega said:

Hi lucina ,

Thanks....I find that very interesting. Your true conjunction and P's matching one....

As your Mars is in Sag, conjunct Neptune, and his Mars is conjunct Jupiter, ruler of Sag (and Pisces, old school).

So there is a similarity and extra brightness, like a doubling of the brightness, would you say? That's how it would appear in the sky, after all...possibly.

My Venus-Neptune has me perplexed lately; thanks for mentioning it. I watched a Jewel Mayberry video on the natal aspect the other day, and she says we are difficult people to be in a relationship with, because we are always searching for a higher ideal.

I think she is talking about those of us who aren't with an ideal mate; when we do find that person, we can sound excessive. People have definitely mocked me for my overblown romantic nature before. 

But Neptune is the higher octave of Venus....put those together and what should happen? Something positive, perhaps? Not ALL negative, as I read.....not just smoke and mirrors. 

Well Leonard Cohen had Venus conjunct Neptune, so did Jeff Buckley, and "Hallelujah" is a good trademark song for it, I guess.

I like that it's "cold and broken" because that means it's real and substantial...only tangible things can break. 

My Saturn is contraparallel Neptune; maybe that's why I don't like being painted as a simpleton in love, even if I have been exactly that.....it's not the only thing I was capable of....or the most important part of my story. 

It's late and I'm babbling and editing and babbling more....

I should just hibernate with this Merc Rx grand crossing my fixed t-square.  

Wow, this is very true!

I have always thought about the very same things.

In synastry, does someone with a planet in one sign, match with another person with another planet aspect the ruler of your own planet?

Mars in Sag --> */Jupiter
Sun in Scorpio --> */Mars/Pluto
Mercury in Gemini --> */Mercury

I think this is helpful especially. I have Mercury in Gemini and have noticed I bounce well off people with Sun/Mercury and Mercury/Mars.

---

StarVega

I have Venus in Aries square Neptune in Capricorn. Despite my Venus aspecting Mars in trine before square to Neptune. It is felt haha.
Always searching for something bigger and better.
I view most people as 'ordinary' and that is not to sound condensending, it is because they are happy just sitting in tranquility or 'stagnation'.
I don't believe my views are lot to ask for, but just I would like to know/be with people with the drive to learn and improve along with passion.

I think that is why I have had less relationships (all relationships, friends, partners etc..) than perhaps my chart may suggest because I only want people who will add value.

But...

From your view, it sounds as if yours has manifested in a romantic manner
That little Pisces Moon is the culprit too haha.

Venus/Neptune only improve with time + being burnt by relationships.
However, Venus/Neptune can be brilliant for artistic inspiration, It helps me when I put music together or think of a creative way of doing something. So each aspect has it's benefits too.
SaveSave

[StarVega]

Hi Sven,

Thanks for your insights. I actually haven't paid too much attention to dispositors in synastry, except that I've assumed I like Saturn synastry because Saturn rules my sun.

It makes sense what you are saying about looking out for people who are a little above average, so to speak You have a sun-moon-Neptune grand trine. How could you be happy in mundane relationships and scenarios? A touch of magic and an element of surprise (Neptune conjunct Aqua Uranus) would be needed, to make things worthwhile. Plus, Leo Mars never settles for second best.

My husband has Leo Mars so I am flattering myself there. And just being silly.

True, I used to be such a romantic....that crazy Pisces moon has made my life a wild adventure. I guess it hasn't been all bad. I treasure all sorts of memories.

Hope you're having a nice weekend!

[sven555]

Apr 15, 2017 14:03:47 GMT StarVega said:

Hi Sven,

Thanks for your insights. I actually haven't paid too much attention to dispositors in synastry, except that I've assumed I like Saturn synastry because Saturn rules my sun.

It makes sense what you are saying about looking out for people who are a little above average, so to speak You have a sun-moon-Neptune grand trine. How could you be happy in mundane relationships and scenarios? A touch of magic and an element of surprise (Neptune conjunct Aqua Uranus) would be needed, to make things worthwhile. Plus, Leo Mars never settles for second best.

My husband has Leo Mars so I am flattering myself there. And just being silly.

True, I used to be such a romantic....that crazy Pisces moon has made my life a wild adventure. I guess it hasn't been all bad. I treasure all sorts of memories.

Hope you're having a nice weekend!

Hey hey, 

It is an interesting concept, however I am not sure of it's accuracy yet.
Is that really the configuration behind this? Sun-Moon-Neptune GT? Ahh this is making sense now haha  

Perhaps you notice traits in both me and your husband because we both have a Leo Mars. Silliness is at the top.

Haha, that sounds great. Nice to hear you enjoyed the journey of Pisces !

Hope you have a good one too!

[lucina]

StarVega,

I love Venus-Neptune. It comes with some caveats of course, but there is no other constellation I think that is able to perceive the magic of the world. Unfortunately they are usually so vulnerable and softhearted that they easily get disillusioned with the world at large, esp. if around people who have zero understanding of that ability. It`s also not easy to bring the spiritual love of Neptune into a tangible manifestation of the personal love of Venus, but if anyone can do that, then it`s you Venus-Neptune-folks. If for anyone cinderella-stories can come true, it`s for you. But you have such a sensitive and vulnerable soul, it needs some protection, and Venus-Neptune is not good in doing the boundary thing, it`s foreign to their nature, that is so compassionate and merging. So growing up for Venus-Neptune kids is probably a really harsh process, when they realize they have to develop a thicker skin to survive emotionally and physically sometimes. But it never feels "right", it`s like a surrendering to something that is necessary for survival, but that just feels so foreign and unnatural, really. Makes it very exhausting.

Also sometimes love is magical, but sometimes love simply dissolves and runs like quicksilver through the hands, like it`s never even been there, that`s Neptune`s nature. I guess it is not easy to find a balance there.
But so much creativity and imagination!
At least potentially.


As for Halleluja, I agree with you and disagree with you at the same time. Yes, it is realistic and tangible, but it is also jaded and resignative.


"Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you"
The singer fell in love or actually in a crush, helplessly drawn to that woman/ girl because of mostly her beauty and appearance, but there was also something quite magical, and yet not real about it (moonlight).


"She tied you to her kitchen chair
She broke your throne and she cut your hair
And from your lips, she drew the Hallelujah"

then somewhen during that time, things changed; she was having power over him, mostly because of his attraction and love for her, and she domesticated him and in a way bound him to her (tied.... kitchen chair). He was losing all his power and strength (she cut your hair is an allusion to the story of Samson and Delilah I think, in which Delilah cut Samson`s hair and so he lost all his strength).
But on the good side the sex was pretty awesome, though over time the whole relationship might have shifted into "draining him".



"Baby, I've been here before
I've seen this room and I've walked this floor
You know, I used to live alone before, I knew you"

It`s nothing new, he`s experienced this process in a relationship before.


"And Love is not a victory march
It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah"

Actually I think this is irony, he calls it love, yet it`s not love anymore, it`s a cold and a broken Hallelujah, it`s become the shell of a genuine emotion and relating to each other. What once started with that feeling of sacredness, became cold and broken.


"Well, there was a time when you let me know
What's really going on below
But now you never show that to me, do you?"

The former closeness and intimacy has been replaced by non-understanding and non-communication. The lovers have stopped sharing and communicating.


"But remember, when I moved in you
And the holy dove was moving too
And every breath, we drew was Hallelujah"
The memory of when intimacy, especially physical intimacy, felt sacred and spiritual even and magical.

"But, all I've ever learned from love
Was how to shoot somebody who outdrew you?

And it's not a cry, that you hear at night
It's not somebody, who's seen the light
It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah"


Love has taught him to be on his guard, and actually the love has become competition who will keep the upper hand, and to be the first to shoot before being hurt.




Well just my 2 cents.


Interestingly enough P dedicated that song to his long-term-girlfriend, and the next thing I heard of them was that they had broken up. I think he was really hurt that night by her letting him down. And it possibly was one of the last straws.


It`s still a beautiful song though.

[lucina]

Apr 14, 2017 7:13:19 GMT sven555 said:

Apr 14, 2017 4:07:04 GMT StarVega said:

Hi lucina ,

Thanks....I find that very interesting. Your true conjunction and P's matching one....

As your Mars is in Sag, conjunct Neptune, and his Mars is conjunct Jupiter, ruler of Sag (and Pisces, old school).

So there is a similarity and extra brightness, like a doubling of the brightness, would you say? That's how it would appear in the sky, after all...possibly.

My Venus-Neptune has me perplexed lately; thanks for mentioning it. I watched a Jewel Mayberry video on the natal aspect the other day, and she says we are difficult people to be in a relationship with, because we are always searching for a higher ideal.

I think she is talking about those of us who aren't with an ideal mate; when we do find that person, we can sound excessive. People have definitely mocked me for my overblown romantic nature before. 

But Neptune is the higher octave of Venus....put those together and what should happen? Something positive, perhaps? Not ALL negative, as I read.....not just smoke and mirrors. 

Well Leonard Cohen had Venus conjunct Neptune, so did Jeff Buckley, and "Hallelujah" is a good trademark song for it, I guess.

I like that it's "cold and broken" because that means it's real and substantial...only tangible things can break. 

My Saturn is contraparallel Neptune; maybe that's why I don't like being painted as a simpleton in love, even if I have been exactly that.....it's not the only thing I was capable of....or the most important part of my story. 

It's late and I'm babbling and editing and babbling more....

I should just hibernate with this Merc Rx grand crossing my fixed t-square.  

Wow, this is very true!

I have always thought about the very same things.

In synastry, does someone with a planet in one sign, match with another person with another planet aspect the ruler of your own planet?

Mars in Sag --> */Jupiter
Sun in Scorpio --> */Mars/Pluto
Mercury in Gemini --> */Mercury

I think this is helpful especially. I have Mercury in Gemini and have noticed I bounce well off people with Sun/Mercury and Mercury/Mars.

---

I think so yes.  There is a subtle yet natural understanding, like being on the same wavelength, or approaching things similiarly, but usually without having to express it verbally. It`s just an undercurrent understanding. like "getting each other". 



My Mom and Dad for example. 

My Mom has Moon, Venus and Mars in Virgo, my Dad has Virgo-ASC, so Mercury is his chartruler, and is placed in Capricorn, trine my Mom`s Venus exactly and Mars with a bit of leeway. I think for her this Mercury-aspect was more important than maybe for other people, as her Venus is attuned to Mercury. It`s like something inside her sais: Okay, so Venus is love, and love needs to be Mercurial (Virgo) or I will not realize it IS love/ attraction. 
And along came my Dad, obviously he also put his ASC onto her Venus-Mars. , but his chartruler being Mercury, and in another earthsign, and actually trine his ASC and Saturn on his ASC - he has a mutual reception of Mercury and Saturn,Mercury in Cap, Saturn in Virgo, and both trine each other, (the Cap-Saturn part was also important as my Mom`s DESC is in Cap). 

So he was providing that serious down to earth profound intellectual vibe, that her natal chart told her SHOULD be there. 
It might not be very obvious and flashy, but it is like those dispositor aspects flesh a connection out, give it a solid underground. 



Well for my Dad Venus is in Aquarius (conjunct Jupiter and opposing Pluto), the dispositor of his Venus-
well I never know if to use the new ones or traditional ones, so checking both-

Uranus in Cancer - and my Mom has Cancer-ASC conjunct Uranus in her chart, and HER Uranus makes a Yod with her own Venus-Mars and HIS Venus-Jupiter. So his Venus is aspected by his own dispositor Uranus, as it comes from my Mom`s chart, though in this case it is a quinkunx. 
I do think however probably it works so well because my mom also has Uranus on her ASC natally, hence she is giving that vibe. 

using traditional rulers, this would be Saturn, and this falls into Virgo for him, exactly conjunct her Venus and also conjunct her Mars by 4 degrees. 
Her Saturn is on his SN, too, and on his Mars as I said, and trine his Sun and voila, also trines his Venus, albeit a bit widely (4-5 degrees I think, so still valid). 

It can get a little like a maze, but that is actually the beauty of astrological connections, if you start recognizing the tapestry that is there, not just single aspects, but how it all is inter-connected. In strong synastries that is. 


Might also explain why sometimes people do not work out despite a strong attraction. in that instance there might maybe be a sparkly synastric aspect like Venus conjunct Uranus for example or even Venus conjunct pLuto as everyone seems to favour that. lol 
But let`s say that Venus is in Sagittarius and the dispositor in Gemini, and there is no aspect natally between VEnus and Pluto (of course that could only happen with an age difference). 

The chemistry might still be there, but our Venus in this instance could feel mostly uncomfortably and possibly even experience it as annoying or antagonistic that spark, in the least there would be not inner connection (on the Venus level). for this person here love or Venus-connections should come with Jupiter-Mercury-vibration mostly and someone else`s Pluto might simply feel too dark and suffocating. 


Just an example of course. 


For me for example with Venus in Capricorn and Saturn in Cancer, Venus definitely needs to be Saturnian, but in fact for me it needs to be an emotional Saturn, as my dispositor tells us. 

Someone else with Venus in Capricorn and Saturn in Capricorn as well for example, probably couldn´t really do anything with the emotional connection that is important to me even if it comes under SAturn`s cover. 


My Sun, Mercury, Mars and ASC are all in Sagittarius, but Jupiter in Pisces, and it shows. that Pisces-dispositorship actually describes quite accurately how I express my SAg-planets, it modifies the expression. It would be vastly different if my Jupiter had been in Aries. Probably I would be compeltely insufferably then. lol

Just my thoughts about this.

[StarVega]

lucina

Aw, such a heartbreaking and beautiful description of Venus-Neptune. It's true that I thought for a while there, that everyone's notion of love was the same as mine....and I was so disorientated to hear people say "love" when it was nothing I recognized as love.

And I threw in the towel and said, "Oh, you all must be right. I was the crazy one who believed in something more than this...."

A little pathetic, but I could have also frittered my whole life away, hoping for something that would never happen. In fact I spent YEARS frozen in that stance, believing in H, ignoring all the signs that he had slipped away for good. It's not like there is a clear victory for those of us who believe in this "higher love"....not unless we eventually find it, right?

But then also, maybe we find love in strange places, in chance occurrences, and in romances that never get off the ground, but remain a kind of untouched ideal.

Like this other Leonard Cohen song:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=svitEEpI07E

Suzanne takes you down to her place near the river
You can hear the boats go by, you can spend the night forever
And you know that she's half-crazy but that's why you want to be there
And she feeds you tea and oranges that come all the way from China
And just when you mean to tell her that you have no love to give her
Then he gets you on her wavelength
And she lets the river answer that you've always been her lover
And you want to travel with her, and you want to travel blind
And you know that she will trust you
For you've touched her perfect body with your mind...


I like your interpretation of Hallelujah...but it's hard to see how he didn't mean it as a love song. It just sounds like one.

"Actually I think this is irony, he calls it love, yet it`s not love anymore, it`s a cold and a broken Hallelujah, it`s become the shell of a genuine emotion and relating to each other. What once started with that feeling of sacredness, became cold and broken."

I wonder if it's both at once? Seems there are two levels: the soul and the personality....and the souls may be in love while the personalities clash, or vice versa.

Anyway, thanks for all the positive things you said about this. Makes me happy to think it's worth something. 

And I've had fun with the artistry part of it, that's for sure.